Cover photo © 2023 Bob Kieser
Billy Boy Arnold is one of the great masters of Chicago Blues. A stylist on harp and vocals, Arnold is humble about his considerable talents. Making big waves in the British Invasion of the 60’s, his recordings for Vee-Jay are staples of the classic cannon. Billy Boy’s career has been long and varied working with a veritable who’s who of the Blues community. At 88 years old, Billy Boy is a living link to the early days of Chicago Blues when he tracked down legends such as Sonny Boy Williamson (the first), Big Bill Broonzy, Memphis Minnie and Blind John Davis, connecting the tradition to his modern takes on Rock and Roll and R&B.
Billy Boy sat down with the prodigious chronicler of the Blues Dick Shurman at Delmark Studios in the Spring of 2023. With special thanks to Julia Miller and everyone at Delmark, Billy Boy and Dick spent over 2 hours recounting a lifetime in the Blues and sharing some stories. Billy Boy’s excellent memoir The Blues Dream of Billy Boy Arnold served as a starting off point for this engaging and educational session. What follows is an edited version of the interview. Breaking from normal Blues Blast interview style, Dick Shurman’s questions are included to give the reader the conversational feel between these 2 Chicago Blues insiders.
Dick Shurman: One of the things that stands out about you to me is that among all the legendary Chicago Blues artists you’re one of the first that was actually born in Chicago. Do you feel you have kind of a different outlook being Chicago born and raised? Did you feel a little more urban?
Billy Boy Arnold: I never gave it no thought. They were just people, I didn’t know where they was from and didn’t care, you know. But, I knew the Blues started in the South. But, no, I didn’t see any difference.
DS: You’ve said your mother’s side of the family were more the Blues people. Could you talk about your aunt’s record player and how that affected your love for the Blues?
BBA: Oh, they used to play the Blues all the time you know, and I liked that kind of music. I was the only kid that liked it, liked the Blues. Just took a likin’ to it. “Worried Life Blues.” Sonny Boy’s record “Coal and Iceman Blues,” and flipped side with “Mattie Mae.” They played Arthur “Big Boy” Crudup “Mean Ol’ Frisco” and “Gonna Follow My Baby.” They played a lot of everything.
DS: I’ve heard from other people like the Myers brothers, that people thought they were really square and from “big foot country” or something because they liked downhome Blues. Did you get that from people your age?
BBA: None of them liked Blues. You didn’t hear Blues at the house or nothin’ like that. But all of them, most of them came from the South, you know. But for me, it was the instrumentation and the song, the singing, the feeling. And the adults played it a lot. It’s the type of music I could feel, you know. A lot of people say “that’s adult music.” But, music was music. See I wasn’t into the stories so much of what they were singing about. I liked the melodies and the instruments, the guitar part, the piano and all that you know. That’s the part I like.
DS: In the book you talked about going to see Sonny Boy Williamson (John Lee Williamson) and one of the first things you asked him was how he’d got that sound on “G.M. & O.” When you found out where Sonny Boy lived and you went to see him when you were I think 12, you were working at the butcher shop right?
BBA: Yeah when I was 11 and 12 I would work at my uncle’s butcher shop on Saturday and Sunday, occasionally. It wasn’t a regular job but he would tell me to come down and work. I didn’t know Sonny Boy lived around there. But, I knew 31st was where, probably, the Blues people were livin’, you know, in that area. See my uncle’s butcher shop was at 31st and Giles. And Sonny Boy lived at 3226 Giles, it’s a block and a half down the street.
DS: Was it somebody around the butcher shop that actually gave you (Sonny Boy’s) address?
BBA: Yeah, I was in the butcher shop on a Saturday evening and it was dark, you know winter time it get dark early, and I saw a guy. Every time I seen a guy with a guitar I’d stop him and ask him questions. So I ran out of the butcher shop and I ask him do you know Sonny Boy? “Yeah I know Sonny Boy.” I ask, do you know where Sonny Boy lives? Now the reason I know who he was, his name was Lazy Bill Lucas, he didn’t tell me that but he had an affliction. His head would go around like this. He was born like that. So I ran back in the shop and wrote it down, “3226 Giles.” It’s only a block and half from the butcher shop. That’s how I found out his address.
DS: Lazy Bill, yeah I remember he said the guitar was a “starvation box.” That’s why he switched to piano. You took a couple of people with you the first time to see Sonny Boy, right?
BBA: Yeah it was 2 kids.
DS: Were they excited by him or were they there mostly because it was your thing and they wanted to see what was going on? Were they interested by Sonny Boy too?
BBA: Oh no no. See we would go to the movie theaters every Saturday. We were gettin’ ready to go to the movie theater and I said well come on by Sonny Boy’s house with me. They said no we go to the movie theater first and we get out at 2 o’clock in the afternoon and then we’ll go to Sonny Boy’s house with yah. We were on 63rd street in Englewood. Within a 2 block area there was about 6 or 7 movie theaters. So after we got out of the movie theater around 2 o’clock we took the elevated train to 33rd and State, and the local ran at that time so you could walk. We walked over 3 blocks east to Giles to where Sonny Boy lived at 3226 Giles.
So I rung the doorbell and this well dressed man answered. You seen these African people that’s Nubians, they call ‘em. Almost black, I mean black unusually like. That’s the way Sonny Boy was. In his books you can’t tell. But he was black as midnight, you heard me describe that in the book. This well dressed man came to the door and he had a lot of hair on his head. He said “Can I help you?” We said we want to see Sonny Boy. He said “this is Sonny Boy.” We said we want to hear you play your harmonica. He said “come on up, I’m proud to have you all.” When we got upstairs Johnny Jones and a young lady was there. He told them “they came to see Sonny Boy.” I said: Sonny Boy, how you make that harmonica say “wah wah wah.” He said, “you have to choke it.” I said let me hear you do that. He choked it. I told him I can play harmonica just like you if you play “Lacey,” his latest record was “Lacey Belle,” (named after Sonny Boy’s wife). He put the record on and I couldn’t choke it but I be singing the words and he got a big kick out of that because I knew all the lyrics.
DS: And so Sunnyland’s joint, where Sonny Boy met his end, was just like about a block and half around the corner from there. It was close?
DS: Yeah Jimmy was a big gambler, we all knew (chuckles).
BBA: All of them were jealous of Sonny Boy cause he was on top. He was the biggest artist on the scene there. Memphis Minnie, Big Bill all of those are real artists. Jimmy Rogers and them were trying to get started, didn’t have no signature style. You know small record companies would record them and give ‘em a chance too.
Anyway Jimmy Rogers said “I was there when it happened.” He said they heard a lot of tumblin’ and wrestling’ in the back. He said when they carried Sonny Boy out they had him in both arms and his feet were draggin’. Sunnyland Slim told everybody that “ain’t nobody seen nothin’, ya hear! Ain’t nobody seen nothin’.” They had to take him in Sunnyland’s car cause he couldn’t walk, his feet was dragged. They took him to his house and rang the doorbell and left him leaning against the doorbell. The lady on the first floor said she heard a lot of scufflin’ and a lot of noise.
When Lacey Belle came down, Sonny Boy’s learning against the door and he was saying “they got me, they got me.” And he said “I won more money tonight then I ever won.” But he didn’t have no money when he come home. So she helped him upstairs. She didn’t know he was mortally wounded, she just thought he was you know, been drinkin’ and been in a scuffle. She helped him take his clothes off and everything. And he was saying “lord, I’m down, lord I’m down.” They called the police. When the police got there they took him to Michael Reese Hospital and he was dead on arrival.
DS: Another one of the Blues people it seems like had a lot to do with opening up the scene for you, including taking you to Silvio’s (legendary Chicago nightclub), was Blind John Davis, who of course also recorded with Sonny Boy. How did you connect with him in the first place?
BBA: They had a brochure at a dime store where they sold records. I was lookin’ through there and they had a picture of Blind John Davis. He had a record out called “Magic Carpet,” it was by the Blind Johnny Davis Trio. I had seen this blind guy sitting in the chair. I just saw him, you know. I just throw it out there to say, you know Blind John Davis? He said “Sure I know John. I been knowing him since he 14 years old. His uncle got a coal shed right there on Lake and Leavitt.” That was only 2 blocks from where this guy lived. So when I left there, I’d seen his uncle there several times and I asked him, I said you know Blind John Davis. He said “yeah, that’s my nephew. See that red house right across the street there? That’s where he live at.”
So I went over and knocked on the door and I said, does Blind John Davis live here? He said “yeah.” I said you make a record with Sonny Boy? He said “yeah I made a lot of records with Sonny Boy.” And that’s how I met him.
DS: When John took you to Silvio’s was that the first Blues club you went to or had you gone before that?
BBA: Yeah, he took up there to meet Big Bill (Broonzy). Big Bill and Blind John went to Paris and they stayed over there a few weeks. And when they came back, Silvio had a big sign up there: “Direct from Paris, France. Big Bill Broonzy and Blind John Davis.” And on Saturday they had like a cocktail party. They put 2 or 3 tables together and put 3/5ths of whisky on there. All the musicians who came in to jam could drink for free. This was sort of a musicians’ only. So I went up there with Blind John to meet Big Bill. He said, “this is the boy I was telling you about Big Bill.” And I shook hands with Big Bill, you know, blah blah blah. And I really liked Big Bill’s singin’ and playin’ cause my auntie had his records too. He had an unusual way of singing. If you ever heard one of his records and you heard it again, you’d know it was him.
Memphis Minnie was playing down on the next block, Leavitt and Lake. Blind John lived at Leavitt and Lake.
DS: Yeah I was gonna say that must have been really close. Silvio’s was right there too.
BBA: Silvio’s was at Oakley and Lake and you walk a block east was this club that Memphis Minnie and Son Joe was playing there at a cocktail party. So I walked down the street with Big Bill and Blind John and we went where Minnie was playing. So we got down there, the place was packed. They were having a cocktail party too. So I really wanted to meet Memphis Minnie because my aunt had her record “Me and My Chauffeur.” She was sittin’ at the bar, she was well dressed. Her husband Joe, he had a day job and he bought her pretty clothes and stuff. They had the best instruments, he took good care of her. Cause you know the Blues singers didn’t make a lot of money. She was a nice looking lady, you know. The music was loud. I wanted to meet Memphis Minnie so I walked over and I said “Memphis Minnie, Memphis Minnie, Memphis Minnie.” She looked around and said “man will you get out of my ass!” (chuckles)
DS: Just to plug the book again, it’s got great maps in it where everything was in Chicago, if people are curious where all the clubs and homes were in relation to each other. Billy Boy’s book The Blues Dream of Billy Boy Arnold is a great place to start because it’s all right there. How many times did you go with John to Silvio’s? Did you go back after?
BBA: I just went there that time, until I got older. I was 15 years old when Silvio saw me and Elmore James was playing there. When I started playin’ there Silvio ask me how old I was “well how old were you 4-5 years ago when you used to come in here?” He didn’t realize I was a kid, you know. But he knew I know all the musicians. But he didn’t say anything.
DS: It’s like Jodi Williams told me when he started playing with Morris Pejoe and Henry Gray in the clubs he was 17. Of course he had to tell ‘em he was 21. He said “so I stayed 21 for 4 years.”
BBA: haha yeah right
DS: Where else would you go early on to actually cross paths with these people? When did you start making the rounds and hearing it in person?
BBA: Well after that I met Louis (Myers) in 1951, that same year, on 31st street. I saw 2 guys with guitars, there were 3 guys, 2 of them had guitars. Louis Myers, Dave Myers and Junior Wells. They were in a pawn shop buying some harmonicas, Junior was buying some harmonicas. That’s how I met them. And then Louis told me they were playing at the Zanzibar. They took me over there one day while they were going to work. He told the guys, “he’s just gonna stand against the wall and listen to the music.”
DS: I always laugh, Scott Dirks found something in the union records that they brought the Aces (the Myers brothers and Wells’s band) up to the union because of their unruly behavior (chuckling) at the Zanzibar. I always kinda picture which ones of them would have been the unruly ones.
BBA: Was it Dave?
DS: Or Junior, he’s one of my main suspects.
BBA: Junior he’s pretty quiet and cool. Dave was real business like and pretty conservative. Louis did more talkin’ than Dave, you know.
DS: Your records for Cool Records were the first time you were “Billy Boy”. A lot of people were surprised by these recordings because the band was more uptown than what they might have expected from you. Can you explain how it happened that it was kind of a Swing Band with saxophone instead of your original idea which was Big Bill Broonzy and Blind John on it?
BBA: Well Blind John knew this guy named Peachtree Logan. He wasn’t a recording star but he was Blind John’s buddy. They drank together and partied. Him and his sister-in-law decided to get a recording company going. Cause she had a doll factory over on Maxwell Street where they made gowns and such. So they got this record thing goin’. Blind John’s saying “I know a boy who plays harmonica and sings.” They said well bring him over and blah, blah, blah. And so that’s how that started.
Blind John told me to ask Peachtree for some advance royalty (haha). So I went over there and I said how about some advance royalty? So Peachtree Logan said, “who told you to say that?” I said Blind John. And he fell out with Blind John behind that. And so Blind John and Big Bill didn’t make the record and they got a band called the Bob Carter Trio. They made the record and they weren’t a Blues band you know. They were sort of Blues.
DS: I think it was around 1953 you started actually gigging. You mentioned Johnny Temple and Johnny Shines, Otis Rush. What do you remember about Johnny Shines?
BBA: Johnny Shines was playin’ at 43rd and Greenwood every Monday. Johnny Shines knew I was trying to play harp and he got me down there to play harp cause he knew I couldn’t play shit at that time (hahaha).
DS: Johnny had played with Big Walter Horton around that time. Did you ever encounter Big Walter around that time?
BBA: Yeah I’m fixin’ to tell yah how I did. So I’m sittin’ there playin’ harp and Big Walter standin’ up lookin’ at me. He said “boy, give me that harp.” And he blew me out the joint (laughing). I think Johnny told him “give the boy back the harp, let him play the harp.” And Big Walter looked around and said “what if I kick a mother fucker’s ass.” And Johnny said “you can’t kick my ass.”
DS: I think you had told me a long time ago that the reason you were playing with Johnny was he and Walter had one of their periodic falling outs. Speaking of meeting Walters, wasn’t it around that time that you first ran into Little Walter? I think you said, in the book at the Zanzibar, that was the first time you actually heard him.
BBA: Yeah Walter played the Zanzibar. He made that record and Louis and Dave were playing there.
DS: So this would have been like ‘52 when “Juke” came out?
BBA: Yeah, “Juke” was out, it was a hit. And Walter was playing over there and Junior and Louis would play there when Walter was out of town.
DS: You also mentioned seeing Little Walter at the Hollywood Rendezvous. Do you remember much about that?
BBA: Oh yeah the Hollywood Rendezvous was an established club. Big Bill played there in the 40’s and Sonny Boy played there. You know all the big time guys. So Walter was hot so that was Walter’s home base. If he went out of town and stayed 3 weeks, whatever day he came back to town, if you were playing there that night, when Little Walter came in, you didn’t have no gig.
DS: It’s pretty obvious that nobody carrying a guitar was safe from your questions. In your book you describe how you went up to Bo Diddley and Jodi Williams carrying guitars. I’ll let people read that for themselves. But I’ve been meaning to ask you, do you know why Jodi Williams wasn’t on the “Bo Diddley” session? Was it that guy Buttercup?
BBA: You see Jodi was playing with Howlin’ Wolf and more advanced Blues guys. He didn’t have much respect for what Bo was doing, he wanted to play like B.B. King. That’s how that happened. But, (Leonard) Chess started bringing Jodi in. Cause when you make records you gotta have somebody who can help the records, you know. So Bo Diddley plays the style he play and Jodi he’s more advance, B.B. King, T-Bone Walker style. I think when Bo Diddley got him, he needed somebody who could take the place of horn players and stuff. He started traveling with Bo Diddley.
When I first met him, Jodi wasn’t playing all that B.B. King stuff then. He was just playing rhythm behind Bo. He was bored, he wanted to advance. He told me “I have to get away from Bo Diddley, I want to play some real stuff. I want to play like B.B. King and T-Bone Walker.” Bo was really playin’ down home Blues. He had his own style of doing what he was doing.
DS: Buttercup was Bo’s rhythm guitar player after Jodi right?
BBA: Buttercup was Bo’s neighbor across the street. Bo would show him how to play guitar. Buttercup was backin’ pretty good on rhythm. So when we got this job at Castle Rock, Buttercup was in the band. His father, his whole relatives would be there, everything, Buttercup’s old lady. Some woman was sittin’ at the bar she must have said somethin’ to Buttercup or his old lady thought she was flirting or something. His old lady hit her with a whisky bottle and cut her face open. And when she did that, she started running the long bar. She start runnin’ down the bar throwing’ glasses. She wrecked the joint. The club owner trying to talk to her. So he got his gun and shot in the floor three times: bam, bam, bam and got her attention. And she stopped to look around, Bo Diddley come up behind and put a full nelson on her and carried her out the club. And that was the end of Buttercup’s career.
DS: A day in the life, wow. Bo helped you go to Vee-Jay and of course some of your Vee-Jay recordings ended up having a lot to do with spreading the word about you, particularly overseas. Unfortunately, not so helpful financially. But, of course the Yardbirds and the Animals between “I Ain’t Got You” and “I Wish You Would” that’s where a lot of white people first heard about you. You said you never did get any royalties from any of that.
BBA: I didn’t never get nothing. That wasn’t the white people. That was the crooked-ass Vee-Jay. Vee-Jay wasn’t gonna give nobody nothing. Jimmy Bracken (one of the studio heads) was tellin’ somebody, and I was within earshot: “Somebody say Chess given Chuck Berry 2 cents. I wouldn’t give nobody 2 cents.” That mother fucker, he wouldn’t have been in the business if it wasn’t for them. Leonard Chess wasn’t no damn fool, he knew Chuck Berry was a potential guy to make millions. He wouldn’t have given him shit. If he would have F-ed over Chuck Berry and Chuck Berry would have whooped his ass and left.
DS: Jodi Williams was with you on your first couple of Vee-Jay sessions. Then after that Syl Johnson came into the picture. Was Jodi in the Army or were you just working more with Syl? You told me once Shakey Jake was the guy who told you about Syl.
BBA: Jodi hadn’t went to the Army then. We went to Oklahoma somewhere. Shakey Jake said, “You lookin’ for a band?’ I said yes. He said, “I know two young guys Syl Johnson and Odell Campbell. They used to be my band you can have them.” I had this record “I Ain’t Got You” and I started working at Club Alibi. That’s the way it went down.
DS: Since the early 70’s, on various European and American labels between Electro-Fi, Alligator, Red Lightnin’, and others, you’ve stacked up a lot of credits. Do you have particular favorites? If you wanted people to hear Billy Boy Arnold the way you want to be heard, what records would you steer them to?
BBA: The two albums I did for Alligator are the two best albums I ever made, to me. (Back Where I Belong, 1993; Eldorado Cadillac, 1995)
DS: Let’s talk about the old stuff you let me tape for you back in 1969 that Delmark is working on now to put out on CD. There is the session that you did at Lorenzo Smith’s place with Jerome Arnold (Billy Boy’s bassist younger brother), Bill Warren and Mighty Joe Young, do you remember how that came about?
BBA: We did that in Lorenzo’s back room. I was just trying to get some material to present to a record company and that’s how that came about.
DS: So it’s like a demo. I’ve always liked it, it’s not like trying to be anything real fancy. But I always thought it was a really solid piece of Chicago Blues. You have played a fair amount of bass over the years, including with Charlie Musselwhite. Did Jerome show you stuff, did you show Jerome stuff?
BBA: Oh I was just trying to play bass, trying to learn a different instrument. No, he didn’t show me stuff. Reggie Boyd showed me some stuff. Jerome was always working with Howlin’ Wolf or Paul Butterfield or somebody, he wasn’t never around to show me nothin’. Jerome listened to Mac Thompson, he watched him play, thought it was easy. So he went and got himself a bass. Next thing you know he was playin’ with Otis Rush and different people you know, till the point he got to be a pretty good bass player.
DS: You did some informal recording with Paul Butterfield and James Cotton. There’s that song “Three Harp Boogie” with Elvin Bishop on guitar. Did you have many dealings with Paul back then when he was on his way up?
BBA: Oh yeah we talked and everything. I complimented him because I thought he was a good harp player. He was a fast learner and he could sing.
DS: I was struck by the part in the book where you said when you saw people like that you sort of recognized some of what was in them; they were kind of chasing the same thing you were. The Blues were calling to them. I thought that was a real generous way to look at it. Did you show either Paul or Charlie Musselwhite any harmonica directly?
BBA: Those guys played more harp than I did when I met ‘em, especially Charlie. Paul didn’t really need nobody to show him no harp, he could do it on his own, you know. He was an aggressive kid, he didn’t stand still. And Charlie was a master harp player. One thing Johnny “Big Moose” Walker said, and he was right, Charlie Musselwhite could play some of the greatest intros on the harp. I mean dynamite. Charlie could break out all those songs on the harp, man. Damn, hell of a man on the harp.
DS: How would you describe your own playing, your own harp style?
BBA: Well, I don’t have a whole lot of compliments on my harp playing myself. Cause I was just kind of a lazy guy, you know.
DS: I think you sell yourself short. I think when people hear the instrumentals on the stuff you recorded at Lorenzo’s house they’ll think that too. You’re not just a guy who can play a few notes in between your singing. You can blow a nice solo or a nice instrumental. You know your way around and you do have a sound.
During those days when you were recording for Vee-Jay, when you would do your live shows, how much of what you were singing was Blues and how much was Rock and Roll? I know you’ve always done a lot of Rock and Roll.
BBA: Well, it depends on the area you was playing. Certain parts of the South Side like Blues, low down Blues, you know, the real Blues. Some like more swinging type of Blues, you try and adjust. My singing, I wasn’t a great singer, but my singing was a little better than my other instruments.
DS: Louis Myers told me you were the “singingest cat in Chicago.”
BBA: Oh I didn’t know that. He told me “you got that after-soul.” I didn’t know wat that means “after-soul.” I think what it meant, those guys that went over good on records. They can sing a song and do somethin’ to it, to the lyric, that can get you to a feeling.
DS: Yeah you are one of the ones who has it.
Interview by Richard Shurman, transcribed and edited by Bucky O’Hare.
